Cryoncholia

General forum for any topics not covered by the other forums
criley
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by criley » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:03 pm

I wish mine were, I would definitely sell them on Alcor. (It has been ~27 years for my dad now and about half that for my mom!). They died too young.
Merkle wrote:Is your mother still alive?

Merkle
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by Merkle » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:41 pm

To others reading: when the time comes to use this argument, use it.

Jim Halperin used it on his father. It worked. I don't think he regrets it.

Andrew
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by Andrew » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:18 am

My neighbors are Hasids. Once they knocked on my door and asked if we'd join them in a ceremonial prayer at their house. They weren't prosthelytizing, just being friendly. I'm not Hasidic or even Jewish (or even religious) but I was really touched. I know that's not the point of the comment. I'm just saying that Jews do sometimes come knocking (but not very often).

It can't hurt to use the argument that Merkle posted (Thanks for it), especially if one suspects that money is not the main problem and if the loved one is terminal but still has a little time to go (for paperwork etc.).

I will use it if it other attempts fail. It may save the day. It would make the future much better if it worked.
“If all else perished, and he remained, I should still continue to be; and if all else remained, and he were annihilated, the universe would turn to a mighty stranger.”
― Emily Brontë, Wuthering Heights
If we do end up alone in a strange future, we do have other cryonicists. I'm serious. We should stick together.

Frosty
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by Frosty » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:19 pm

Andrew wrote: If we do end up alone in a strange future, we do have other cryonicists. I'm serious. We should stick together.

Due to the many uncertainties surrounding cryonics revival, especially for a given individual (in terms of whether, when, how, and in what form they will come back), I believe the only honest position one can take when explaining their choice of cryonics to someone else is to say that it was first and foremost a personal decision that you would have made even if you knew in advance that you would be waking up in a world in which no one remembered your name - because that is a very real possibility if you end up getting a better quality of cryopreservation than other members who may have joined along with you, just as it is a very real possibility for anyone else whom you have convinced to sign up with you. You would view having your friends and family waking up alongside you in the future as highly desirable, but even if you knew they wouldn't be there, you are certain you would still do it.

It is for this reason that I am hesitant to spend a lot of effort convincing family members to join with me. I am not convinced they could handle waking up alone, but I know I could. It's a conclusion they have to arrive at themselves, otherwise I could ultimately be causing them great suffering in the future in order to help placate my own insecurities and fears in the here and now. In this sense, convincing someone else to join using sensational emotional arguments that presuppose specific concrete outcomes (i.e. "I'll be alone in the future and constantly feeling sad and regretting that you aren't there with me"), as opposed to allowing them to decide for themselves based on the full facts and many daunting unknowns that cryonics presents, is actually a quite selfish and intellectually dishonest move, especially considering there is an immediate tangible cost to them for signing up in the form of insurance and dues.

If asked, I would tell others the test of whether cryonics is truly right for you is this: if a magic portal to a distant future suddenly appeared in front of you in your old age and all you know for certain about this portal is that on the other side of it lies a world in which the repair of almost any ailment, reversal of aging, and significant life extension are now possible, and it will permanently close immediately behind you, would you jump through it without hesitation, even though it could mean never seeing any of your family or loved ones ever again and them potentially having to live out the remainder of their lives uncertain about your ultimate fate? If the answer is yes, then cryonics is for you, if you don't think you would or are otherwise unsure, then in my opinion, you are not yet mentally prepared for it.

I personally chose cryonics because I do not believe in an afterlife, know I can handle striking out on my own and adapting to radical changes in circumstance, and have faith in the future being a fine place to live with technology and possibilities that will blow our collective minds. And if nothing else, it has to beat dying of old age and not existing at all for the rest of eternity - which sounds rather dull and ho-hum to me. And in addition to that, I'm powerfully curious - I want to know what the future will bring for humanity, both the good and the bad. I think we may well be the only intelligent species in the galaxy, and if so, our future could be far more expansive than most anyone has ever seriously pondered. Unlike all the doomsayers throughout history and among us now, I believe we humans are just getting started and I want to be there to see it unfold. For me, to say no to cryonics at a time like this would be to choose narrow-mindedness and shortsightedness over reason. Our footprints are on the moon. We have harnessed animals, the sun, the wind, the water, the earth, and the atom. I don't think anything else needs to be said regarding our prospects for the future.

More than ever before, we are masters of our own fate, and cryonics is the ultimate expression of that ideal.



Frosty

RibJig
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by RibJig » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:30 pm

IMO the issues in this thread will not exist in future
because they will ALL be quickly solvable. No one
will be revived until they are...
Guessing now as to how, for example, being unknown
after revival & missing loved ones:
whomever or whatever is stored in your brain will easily
be recreated -- not just what one remembers, but
also what one doesn't remember -- & AI will fill in
gaps, so if you want to take trip to Saturn's Rings
with a golfing buddy from 2020, no problem...
It won't be the real person, but made from
your brain in a way that SATISFIES your need
to connect to that person...

Frosty
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by Frosty » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:40 pm

RibJig wrote:AI will fill in gaps, so if you want to take trip to Saturn's Rings with a golfing buddy from 2020, no problem... It won't be the real person, but made from your brain in a way that SATISFIES your need to connect to that person

I believe you are correct with this prediction, and more so than you realize.

I foresee a cottage industry sprouting up in the near future built around the concept of digitally reanimating a person's deceased family members and friends from secondary sources (photos, video recordings, writing samples, etc.) for the purposes of having a conversation with them, and I believe this will occur long before anyone is revived from cryopreservation. Between our rapidly developing capabilities with deepfakes, voice emulation, augmented reality, and AI (currently the most lagging element of the four) - plus the massive amount of personal writings that exist on social media for members of the current generation as source material for constructing a persona, I believe it is only a matter of time (perhaps a century at most) before average people are paying significant sums of money to be able to converse with virtual "proxies" of dead loved ones, as well as a variety of others - ranging from historical figures, to celebrities, to "fictional" characters - whom they have never met in reality.

With the exception of their outward superficial appearances and mannerisms (which I expect to be highly accurate) these recreations won't be perfect by any means and will certainly possess only a fraction of the memories of the real people they are based on, but they will mimic their behavior, personality, and mannerisms to a degree that is more than enough to satisfy a customer's need to emotionally connect with the individual before them and feel that they are having a real conversation with them. In fact, the customer will have such a willingness and desire to believe this illusion that they will gleefully overlook even obvious glitches in the proxy's behavior and memory recall in order to cling to the possibility that it could be real. Needless to say, the amount of money to be made with this business model will likely be quite unprecedented, perhaps on par with religion itself, so I anticipate the technologies behind it will take off rapidly once it gains a foothold and will begin to resemble a form of digital immortality for the people and characters "revived" in this manner as the proxies become progressively more and more sophisticated and self-aware, until they eventually start having spontaneous and meaningful conversations with other proxies, in addition to human customers, all in a seamless manner. From that point onward, all bets will be off as to where this technology is ultimately headed, and with the more significant advances that follow that will continue to blur the line between proxies and real people ever further, transhumanism (in which the two kinds join into one) will start to look more and more like an achievable and perhaps even desirable end to the public at large.

The type of revival we are seeking to achieve via cryonics is far more advanced and challenging than any of this, as it must not only be capable of convincing our friends and relatives that we still exist in a conscious and conversant form (a comparatively trivial task, considering people are currently willing to take the second-hand accounts of alleged psychics as proof of this sort of thing) - it must also be capable of convincing our future revived selves of this, from a first-person point of view. I suspect these customers will be far more discerning as to whether or not they (the proxy) are truly conscious, can remember their past lives, and legitimately feel that they are still the same person, unlike the more primitive proxies that needed only to project an air of credibility sufficient to convince others of their identity when analyzed from a third-person viewpoint. Nonetheless, it is a similar end goal in concept and these same technologies projected forward a few additional centuries combined with the advent of quick and cheap brain scanning and simulation (as an ultimate outcome of present neuroscience) should be able to pull it off.



Frosty

RibJig
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by RibJig » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:20 pm

> missing loved ones:
> whomever or whatever is stored in your brain will easily
> be recreated -- not just what one remembers, but
> also what one doesn't remember

Frosty & all,

To clarify, by using "also what one doesn't remember"
to recreate people-things-events in one's past, I meant
transfer of one's unconscious information, which may have
insanely more info than one's conscious information.

As to accuracy of these recreations, if one doesn't want to live
with noticeable imperfections, one can leave revival instructions
NOT to be revived until specific conditions exist of ANY sort,
including recreations of contents of one's memory.

I am not scientific, but IMO we will revive to a world in which
we "store" ourselves endlessly in real time onto "drives"
in case our "primary" self is injured-damaged-killed. Then
we can continue as we were moment before negative even
A kind of eternal life.

What I haven't figured out is our obligations. If "money" is
still needed to buy things, how is it earned if AI is doint
most or all work, in say, 2200...? We will be able to
download any skill, so all should be equal in any ability...?

Frosty
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by Frosty » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:33 pm

Hi Ribjig,

Some counterpoints to your arguments:

RibJig wrote:> missing loved ones:
> whomever or whatever is stored in your brain will easily
> be recreated -- not just what one remembers, but
> also what one doesn't remember

If you don't consciously remember something, this is an indicator it is not a very strong memory and therefore unlikely to hold much discernible information. Such a memory would be of little use in constraining the personality and appearance of the person it describes. If the human brain truly held vast troves of detailed information about our selves and others that we cannot consciously tap into as you suggest, then the brain would be a very inefficient machine from an evolutionary standpoint, as this would imply it is consuming significant energy to maintain memories that offer no survival advantage to the individual, as the person possessing them can't even access or use these memories to guide their behavior. I don't think natural selection would favor a brain with these types of deficiencies.

RibJig wrote:As to accuracy of these recreations, if one doesn't want to live
with noticeable imperfections, one can leave revival instructions
NOT to be revived until specific conditions exist of ANY sort,
including recreations of contents of one's memory.

From an information-theoretic standpoint, you are defined completely by the information stored in your brain, and most of this information falls under the category of "memories", whether these are motor memories (such as how to walk and talk in the particular way you have learned to do these things) or memories of specific events, facts, feelings, sensations, logical principles, objects, or people. When you really step back and think about it, your personal identity consists almost entirely of memories, so it makes no sense to claim that you could go on living as "you" in the future without these memories. You are your memories. Take them away, and you would become no one at all, a blank slate of a person entirely stripped of their identity and individuality. So if the goal of cryonics is to revive "you" (or some semblance thereof), then it will have to preserve and eventually restore as many of your memories as is reasonably possible.

RibJig wrote: What I haven't figured out is our obligations. If "money" is
still needed to buy things, how is it earned if AI is doint
most or all work, in say, 2200...? We will be able to
download any skill, so all should be equal in any ability...?

As long as we live in a world with a) finite resources and b) people with infinite wants and desires, money will exist, since society will always require a means to compete for, abstractly represent, exchange, and fairly distribute these finite resources. As people in the future become more intelligent and capable overall thanks to AI and other advancements, their wants and desires will undoubtedly change, but their drive to compete with each other for resources and personal status, and the need for money to 'keep score' and allow for this competition to play out will remain. To that point, money in the future will be earned the same way it always has: by offering valuable goods and services to others that they are unable to provide for themselves without help (like traveling through space, transmitting large amounts of data from point to point, or constructing a power plant), or obtained via taxation and then given out as welfare.

Also, although many skills that are considered impressive and lucrative today (such as piloting a helicopter) may be freely available for anyone to download and instantly master in the future, not everyone will have the physical assets (such as a helicopter) required to put these skills to practical use, and other newly invented and more sophisticated "skills" that we have trouble even conceiving of performing (such as running advanced astrophysical simulations inside one's head in a fraction of a second) won't be freely available to everyone and will be something that only those few with the very best and most expensive hardware at their disposal will be capable of doing, and so will instead be sold as an on-demand service. In short, our technology and culture will both change drastically in the future, but human nature and basic economics will not, as it is these principles that enable all of our technological and cultural advancements to happen in the first place. As the saying goes, the more things change, the more things stay the same.



Frosty

johnkclark
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Re: Cryoncholia

Post by johnkclark » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:32 am

Hi RibJig
What I haven't figured out is our obligations. If "money" is still needed to buy things, how is it earned if AI is doint
most or all work, in say, 2200...?
In 2200 there will probably be something analogous to money because although the production capacity of society will be astronomically larger than it is now it will not be infinitely larger; so everything can't be free but everything can be very very cheap. That's why I say bringing a brain that has been frozen to liquid nitrogen temperatures back into full operation will either be physically impossible (if it turns out that important information has been irretrievably lost) or it will be easy and cheap as dirt. So the inhabitants of 2200 don't have to be super charitable saints to bring us back, all we need is for one of them to throw a few coins from his pocket change in our general direction.
We will be able to download any skill, so all should be equal in any ability...?
In 2020 I think the most valuable commodity will be computer processing time, and some minds will be able to buy more of it than others.

John K Clark

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